Messy Christian (2.0)

You would love our “camps” (we don’t even call them that). My church is full of media workers, so weekends away have the usual talks and biblestudies, but late starts, Toby’s Estate coffee, lots of hanging out time by the beach, lots of sitting and talking, naps, reading the paper (again, all journalists!) and sometimes bottles of wine to share around the campfire after dinner. We don’t play games. Games were never my thing either. I totally understand your point about forced togetherness and weariness of manufactured fun.

Messy, I can’t work out if what you hate so much (or are so bitter about - and don’t pretend you’re not and are “so over it” because 99% your posts are about this topic, which is a dead giveaway for risidual bitterness!) is church, or just your experience of church.

If it’s the latter, it must have been terrible.

Also, another question. You talk alot in the post about wanting to “just be alone with God”. Is there any room, do you think, for being with God and his people in your faith?

-onlinesoph

I think the Church in some ways have forgotten what it means by “Be still and know that I am the Lord”

Hehe .. your ideal church camp sounds like the BLC retreat I attended last year .. except for the obligatory speaker part .. but its more fun when the speaker is actually part of the retreat and not just a guest speaker

Soph - am not sure i understand your comment about bitterness. I think it’s dangerous ground to say what a person feels inside about a certain issue because one doesn’t know the full picture. But it’s ok, I get that a lot from people. The reason why I blog about it so much is because not that I’m bitter but because it’s my way of working through the issue. When I’m in a dillema, I write to sort out my feelings, that’s all. If I was bitter about church, you’d probably see me putting up post after post about the ‘dying church’, but I know that the church is so much more than a building or a sunday meeting.
You said:
Is there any room, do you think, for being with God and his people in your faith?
Oh, I’m a little miffed about that comment. It’s almost as if you’re saying that I don’t want to hang out with the people of God, which is so not true! In fact, I hang out with them all the time, just not in a church setting.
But still, I do want alone times with GOd, I think everybody does, especially during retreats, I think.
I think I’ll like to attend your ‘camp’ too. If they don’t make me play games, I’m all for it! ;D But it’s probably in AMerica, isn’t it?

wengsoon - I think the Church in some ways have forgotten what it means by “Be still and know that I am the Lord” - I so agree. When you see the frantic activity that goes on in a church, sometimes I wonder that too. But that’s not to say that it’s all bad…

Bob k - oh yeah, wanted to go for that one but work was just too hectic. Yah, if the speaker is part of the group rather than separated, it’s so much more fun.

Liz,

You aint’ the only one who reacts that way to church camp.

What you are asking for sounds a lot like what Catholics do in monastaries, or Protestants do in communities like Taize. The idea is just to get away and get silent with God. The lack of Silence greatly impoverishes evangelical/Charismatic types like me.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Gee, MC2.0, I don’t think you’re thinking *too much*. I think you’re thinking real, scary-but-ultimately-freeing thoughts! I find manufactured togetherness shudderingly bad also and I think at this stage of my journey would prefer to have unmanufactured aloneness with God instead.

I heard about Clare and Irene doing a play at the camp! I wish I could have been there for that!

Even though I don’t attend Gymea Baps anymore [with it being in Sydney and me being in Perth) I still consider that my church!

I know why camps are so hectic. Without structure a lot of people can’t cope with camps and the camps come off looking half baked or like complete mess ups!

Still, I can relate to the manufactured togetherness thing, and a lot of camps I’ve been on I hate being forced to go on compulsory things which are real annoying.
For instance, my first church used to go on a camp and the first night they’d always take everyone on a ‘bush walk’ through cow paddocks and mud and stuff. I hated doing it, because when it’s dark and raining I somehow always manage to get caught on barbed wire, step in a cow pat, destroy my sneakers with mud and constantly get hit with branches and mosquito bites.
So, I started refusing [as did other people] to do the bush walk thing. The organisers of the camp were not happy, but eventually they let us off.
I’m such a rebel!

But, one of the best camps I went on I just grabbed a guitar and spent the time sitting around playing all the time and watching others do stuff. It was a great camp … of course, people wondered why I didn’t stay home to do that.
I thought the guitar had belonged to the camp, as it was next to their piano and stuff.
On the third day the owner of the guitar walked up and said to me, ‘Great guitar.’
And I said, ‘Oh, it’s not mine.’
And he said, ‘I know. It’s mine.’ lol

Anyway, if you do organise a camp with no games, speaker, team activities, be sure to provide some sort of structure.
My old boss was sent on a camp last year [which he didn’t want to attend], and the group that organised it had no activities or structure at all, and the kids just ran wild and virtually caused a riot. My old boss had to take charge in order to settle things down and give the kids things to do.

When he asked the organisers [who were a Government agency by the way] why there hadn’t been any planning for the camp [they’d basically booked a camp site and took the kids there], one of the ladies said it was because her father was so structured and she couldn’t handle any sort of planning or discipline.
She ended up breaking down halfway through the camp and left.
She’d envisaged it as some sort of hippy love in type thing, but of course, she never told the kids that! Instead she got a heap of kids who just ran amock having fights and trying to kill each other at all times of the day and night, followed by my old boss giving the camp structure … mind you, when the kids were running wild the lady didn’t have a problem, it was only after the ’structure’ came in that she couldn’t handle it.

I don’t like Maccas or Burger King. lol

when you have organized one, and we happened to be around, are interested for a nice leisure breakaway get-together camp

the main thing about camp is - learn something as body of christ together, away from daily busyness.

not manufactured togetherness lah

There are camps like what you described. They’re called “silent retreats” Those are specifically geared for people who just want some alone time with God to recharge and seek Him in their own way. Camps, on the other hand, are meant to have talks and activities. So, if you don’t like them, don’t go for them lor… go for the silent retreats instead (Our camp speaker, Dr Voon, conducts silent retreats. Interesting, no?)

I don’t find that there’s a need to be cheerful all the time at church camp. I certainly wasn’t — I was sneezing a lot! (Apparently the hotel was pretty dusty… Minishorts’ sinuses went haywire too.) And on the second day, when others were hanging out during the “free & easy” time, I was antisocial and went up to my room to sleep. I didn’t care

Basically, if you don’t want to follow the timetable set by the camp committee, you don’t have to mah. Who’s going to force you to attend all the sessions, or play the games? We’re all adults… it’s up to us what we want to do. One of the campers whose hometown is in Taiping ended up getting diarrhoea and didn’t turn up in camp at all after the first day, just spending the time at home with her family. Nobody said anything also…

Sunflower -
‘One of the campers … ended up getting diarrhoea … spending the time at home … Nobody said anything …’

Someone must have said something, how else did you know she stayed home with Diarrhoea ???

Dabido: She told me herself lah. And when I said “nobody said anything”, I meant nobody commented about it negatively, as you very well know. *whacks Dabido*

MC-aiyah I have to be blunt about this lah sorry can?

just that, if you choose to stay comfortable in the knowledge that church is a manufactured environment of togetherness and therefore you want no part of that, try to be okay and happy with that? finally trust that you are already in your own version of a silent retreat and God hears you, He really does. and then when He does come occasionally knocking on your door asking in, realize that its not going to be easy lah. It’s not called ‘bearing His cross’ for nothing lah..

Ultimately surrendering to the process (which can be difficult) is a choice. Choosing to be bitter is again another choice. And at the end of the day, maybe, you are being holy where you are here, after all Holy doesn’t get translated into ’set apart’ for nothing kan? Its just that I really wished you’d sometimes choose to be happy and less bitter about yourself yah.

Sunflower * Minishorts - so sorry guys, for raining on your parade. After writing that post, I did have a feeling that i’d offend some people. agh! Should listen to my instincts next time and just write it in my paper diary next time.

Listen guys, maybe i’m bitter, maybe i’m not. I’m just writing down my thoughts with no malice directed at anyone. I’m not saying that people who participate in camps are lower than the low, i’m just writing what i think about church camps. I think my mistake was to choose to mention your camps because you must’ve had a great time in it, and that’s wrong of me to try ruin it for ya. not my intention!

And why is everyone so quick of calling me bitter? Seriously. That’s quite … annoying. instead of discussing the church camp issue, the comments are suddenly geared to my character.That’s not what I want, guys! I just want a discussion on church camps, not whether i’m a bitter christian or a happy christian or a sad christian or a whatever christian. In fact, sometimes wearing this christian tag can get a wee wearisome…

i hope i did not somehow indicated you are bitter…

you are anyway not bitter christian, but messy christian, remember?

sorry if you think you’re offended me. I think you’re more offended than I am hahaha… so sorry for offending you.

^_^

Come come, have a beer.

Aiya I not offended. Just pointing out that what you need (quiet retreat) can be found elsewhere, if you seek it in a church camp you won’t find it lor. Church camps are not designed to be that way

I would like to see a continuation of the topic

Great post. I’ve been thinking about a makeover for the camp I lead with youth each summer and your critique here provides a lot of opportunity for rethinking the typical sort of camp that is crammed with activity. I love the suggestion of providing more free time and silence!~